Featuring an interview with Jason Raff, an executive producer of AGT since its debut in 2006
Two stand-up comedians made it to the finals this summer on NBC’s America’s Got Talent. Neither of them won. What else is new?
It’s such a running joke that the primetime network talent competition, the summer’s top-rated TV hit since 2006, put finalist Josh Blue through a self-aware sketch mocking his inevitable defeat which aired as part of the finale week — judge Howie Mandel and former runners-up and finalists including Tom Cotter, Taylor Williamson, Preacher Lawson and Piff the Magic Dragon offered their advice, or lack thereof to help Blue prepare for his fate.
Piff contributed perhaps the most truthful words of wit and wisdom, telling Blue that losing isn’t losing at all. “It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I got my own show in Las Vegas at the Flamingo hotel and casino….and I didn’t have to pay tax on a million dollars! It’s all about losing.”
Piff actually offered plenty more perspective to me when I spoke with him this spring.
Lawson didn’t win or place or show, either, and yet he not only got to tell jokes again during this season, but also will preside over the brand-new America’s Got Talent LIVE in Las Vegas showcase, premiering Nov. 4, 2021, at the pyramid-shaped Luxor resort and casino.
I scored an interview last week with Jason Raff, a co-executive producer on the first season of AGT and an EP ever since.
That’s Raff on the far left in 2012 at the press day for AGT, sitting alongside then-judge Sharon Osbourne, Mandel, and then-host Nick Cannon.
But before we get to my chat with Raff, let’s break down some stats.
Sure, no stand-up comedians have won AGT. But ventriloquists have won three times: Terry Fator (season 2, 2007); Paul Zerdin (season 10, 2015); and Darci Lynne (season 12, 2017). Fator continues to enjoy a lucrative Vegas deal at New York New York. Zerdin had a residency at Planet Hollywood in Vegas, but is currently back across the pond touring in Britain. Darci Lynne, who turns 17 next week, returned to the show this summer for a performance and a sketch.
For stand-ups, Tom Cotter finished in second in season 7 (2012) to Olate Dogs. Taylor Williamson placed second the following season (8, 2013) to Japanese performance artist Kenichi Ebina.
But the finale voting has changed drastically over the years. When Fator won, he only had to beat out three other acts. By season 7-8, Cotter and Williamson competed in six-act finales. Season 10, however, expanded the field to 10 — that’s when Zerdin beat out not only runner-up Drew Lynch, but also Gary Vider and Piff the Magic Dragon. Tape Face made the finals in 2016. Are we counting Tape Face? Preacher Lawson was the only comedian in the finals alongside Darci Lynne. Samuel J. Comroe and Vicki Barbolak made the finals in 2018, when magician Shin Lim won. Ryan Niemiller finished third out of 10, losing to singer/songwriter Kodi Lee. No comedians made the finals in 2020. Which brings us back to this year, where Gina Brillon made the finals and Josh Blue landed in third place.
This season proved remarkable not only because Blue could’ve come away with his SECOND title in an NBC primetime talent competition — he previously won Last Comic Standing in 2006 — but also because the other comedy competitors came with some serious credits under their belts already. Brillon had an Amazon Prime Video original comedy special just last year (and also had appeared in recent years on an HBO Max showcase, and on ABC in a recurring role on The Conners) Michael Winslow was a star of the Police Academy movies in the 1980s with his vocal talents, and could have just as easily been a judge on AGT! The Sklar Brothers have been on multiple TV shows on multiple cable channels over the past two decades.
So I jumped at the chance to talk to Raff about AGT and comedy’s place in the long-running summer variety competition.
This is a slightly edited and condensed version of our chat, for clarity.
Sean L. McCarthy: OK so how I guess before I ask you any other questions: How long have you been producer or EP on AGT?
Jason Raff: I have been there since day one. So we are entering our 17th season, so it’s been about 17 years. It’s hard to say that out loud. I just kind of realized that myself. Oh my God. Seventeen years! Yeah, yeah I got handed a pilot for some show Simon wanted to in the UK but he couldn’t sell it and then NBC bought it, and it became America’s Got Talent.
McCarthy: You’re one of the few who remember that both David Hasselhoff and Piers Morgan, have been attached this show at one point.
Season one host: Regis Philbin. Season one judges: Hasselhoff, Morgan, Brandy.
Raff: Oh yeah. Brandy was season one. And do you know who Brandy’s stylist was season one? Kim Kardashian.
McCarthy: Wow. How would Kim Kardashian do on America’s Got Talent?
Raff (laughs): I don’t know what she’d do. But she was a great stylist.
McCarthy: Well, OK, since you’ve been with the show since the beginning, how has a stand-up comedian never won?
Raff: I wish I knew the answer to that. I mean, ultimately, it’s like the election and… America votes. They always come in second, it seems. We just did a comedy piece about that this year that for some reason, second they come in. But there was a lot of outrage I saw online about Josh Blue, like why he should have won! It’s a fix! But like, I have to question if those people voted, like you have to vote to pick your winner. We just give it to you, America, and you need to decide, so why did America not pick one? I really don’t know.
McCarthy: Well, I understood when Tom Cotter lost to a pack of dogs, at least…
Raff: Please don’t. Yeah, and that is the reason why, sometimes it’s hard to get comedians or any talent on the show is they don’t want to be standing there next to a pack of dogs and lose to them. Now they were very talented dogs. I’m standing up for them, also. But, you know, that is something about our show is, when I started 17 years ago, no one knew what the show was, so attracting talent to it, you know, it was difficult. We would do open calls and 50 people would show up in the beginning, until we got the word out. Now if you’re any kind of variety act, comedian or otherwise, you’ve certainly heard of America’s Got Talent, so you now have to decide. I don’t want to do it, or I do want to do it. And I think we’re finding that more comedians and other talents are saying you know what, I’m gonna give this a try.
McCarthy: And within the comedy community, there’s, there’s quite a lively debate about who qualifies as a stand-up comedian because I just said that stand-up has never won. Multiple ventriloquists have won. It’s a form of comedy.
Raff: You’d have to ask people who vote. I don’t vote on the show. I’m not allowed to. But sometimes I think there’s the criteria may be that they’re getting a Vegas show might have some impact on viewers minds. They may be like, I know comedians headline in Vegas, but they don’t really headline a show in Vegas. But ventriloquists like Terry Fator, who’s probably in the top five of our most successful acts of all-time, can headline a show.
So, I don’t know what’s in the mind of the viewers when they choose. I am guessing that some of them are really trying to cast a show in Vegas and feel who they think is sometimes, but I don’t know the answer. We don’t really have a lot of research on why people vote for who they vote for. I know that comedians, it’s a very tight-knit community as it is, so there have been years where comedians have had a bad experience on our show, and word spreads like wildfire. Oh God, I’ve been to clubs and they’re like, oh my God, so and so can’t stop talking about how, you know standards and practices made him change the word on this thing and it ruined his whole act, and he’s telling everyone not to do the show. We’ve had ups and downs as far as attracting good talent, you know, I think, and that goes for not just comedians but variety acts. I think our reputation the last at least, decade has gone a lot better. I think having Howie as a judge has been amazing for us. I mean, number one, he knows what it’s like to stand on that stage. Number two. I’ve been to clubs with him where, you know, acts come up to him and say ‘Hey, should I do the show?’ and he and I talk about it a lot. I mean, you look at the days when Howie started, you’re a comedian, what was the goal? What was the goal back then? The goal was to get The Tonight Show. If you could get one night on The Tonight Show, one set on The Tonight Show, chances are your life was gonna change. It had such an impact to a comedian’s world, to his future income and everything. It was amazing what that Tonight Show could do. It really doesn’t exist now. There are great comedians doing the late-night shows. The late-night shows are good, but they’re not reaching that audience, and they’re not having that effect that The Tonight Show had way back when. Whereas you do look at AGT. And it is the number one show, certainly of the summer. It’s the real only variety show on TV. It’s the only real show for comedians on TV that are gonna give you, you know, 12 million viewers, plus millions of YouTube views after the fact. So, really can have an impact in your career going forward, even if you’re well known, I mean, look, we got Michael Winslow. Like I couldn’t even believe Michael Winslow, when it was you know, we will get together and go through, who’s applied and everything and, and it’s like Michael Winslow?! Like, really? So, but again, you know Michael was looking, you know, he’s had success. He still tours the country he still does shows, but he was looking for something that doesn’t really exist now besides the internet, but on TV that you know something else to give him a little boost.
McCarthy: My first impulse when I saw Michael Winslow audition was: Michael was auditioning? He could be a judge!
Raff: Exactly, and even we had the Sklar Brothers this year who, I couldn’t believe it. Really? They didn’t make it as far, but for them, at least and I talked to them, they seem pleased of what it had done. In that, you know, a lot of the comedians are like I’m glad I came in second, like to steal Piff’s joke in the finale, like didn’t have to pay any taxes and, and, you know, it helped launch his show in Vegas.
So yeah, it wasn’t surprising this year, the caliber of talent. Again I think we also get criticized ‘oh well I thought it’s an amateur competition.’ I mean, we never said it’s an amateur competition. The one thing about this show that has been the same rule for 17 years, is there are no rules. Like you can be any age, any talent. I mean one of my favorite acts this year was the, was the son and the dad who were stand-up comedians, I don’t know if you saw that but, I mean, that clip’s going pretty well on YouTube also. But the dad came out, did his set and then the son came out and did his set. Again no age restrictions, doesn’t matter if you’re famous or not famous, an amateur like whoever you know, whatever you want, come on out and give it a try.
This video of Gerald Kelly and his son, Hunter, has 3.7 million views as of now.
McCarthy: Well one of the reasons I’m happy and grateful to talk to you is that, you know, like you said, you don’t get to control who votes or who gets the most votes. Since you’ve been on the show with day one and since you’re behind the scenes. People have a lot of control in terms of who gets presented to the audience and I’m curious to know how, over the last 17 seasons, how your and how the show’s approach to comedy has changed.
Raff: I don’t know. What are your impressions? Do you have any impressions of how it’s changed?
McCarthy: The most obvious thing this season was just the credentials of the talent. In earlier seasons, the comedians you saw were people who were not yet famous. This year, everybody had credits. Even the father in that father-son act had been on TV multiple times (Gerald Kelly was on Showtime at the Apollo multiple times in the 1990s, did Def Comedy Jam in 2008, and competed on Last Comic Standing in 2014). And Josh already had won an NBC primetime talent show! Last Comic Standing.
Raff: Yeah. It’s tough because I think the biggest thing for me because I love comedy I’ve always loved comedy before the show, and I think the biggest thing for me was to be, how do we attract the best talent that we can, and a lot of it is based on your reputation. And again we have. The show is not just looking for Michael Winslows or, or a Sklar Brothers. We are looking for everyone and anyone. They could be famous or not, and it’d be, listen. Gina did better than Michael Winslow, you know, and the Sklar Brothers, if you’re looking at it as a competition.
So, we are trying to cast the widest net. I don’t care if you have national experience or no. I’d just as soon find that diamond in the rough who was looking for that opportunity. It makes no difference to me. To me, it’s about the reputation of the show, which has gone up and down in certain circles. I mean I remember, for instance, we had like a woman who danced with her dogs. For whatever reason, the judges didn’t like it. And this woman who was probably the head of the dog dancing association, like, we never saw another dog, woman dancing or man dancing with a dog again, like our reputation was just like ruined in this community based on one person’s experience. And what you find in the variety world: People who do aerial, people who juggle. I mean we had a thing with jugglers where we got tossed out of a juggling convention at one point because David Hasselhoff had insulted a juggler on the TV. And it took years to repair that damage. To me, I feel like my sole job and the producer’s sole job is just to, just attract as much talent as we can. And I think we have repaired our reputation, what people think of us because we are attracting new comedians who want to give it a shot, but also some very established comedians.
McCarthy: So what can you tell me then, about the shift because there was, I don’t know which season — you perhaps know a lot better than I — but at one point, I noticed decided shift in the tone of the show. The early seasons of the show, along with the older reality competition Simon Cowell-type shows, where you leaned as much into the bad acts who got Gong-Showed off as much as the great acts. And then at a certain point, it shifted. Those became rare if not ever seen, for more uplifting and look at all of these positive stories.
Raff: You’re 100% right. That’s very, that is 100% true. I don’t know if it was such, like producers getting together and making this change, it just kind of changed. If you look at reality TV back when we started. Even Simon Cowell, for that matter, you know, in the early Idol days. But I mean, I did dating shows. There was a much meaner tone to it all. There was a meanness to it. There was, you know, bringing people on and us as an audience laughing at someone, you know, just bombing basically. And I don’t know. I think just times have changed. I’m not just talking about super woke times of, ‘oh we can’t do this anymore.’ I just think people got tired of that and wanted to be uplifted. Why do you turn the TV on? I mean, nowadays like I turn it on, just to kind of forget about all the bad things going on in life. So, you know, I’d much rather you know give an opportunity for two, three good comedians to be on TV then, there really is nothing funny. I mean, unless you’re sitting with a bunch of comedians behind the back of a comedy club. There’s nothing really fun about watching a comedian bomb. And I think that’s helped our reputation, too, like we’ve had comedians who are, you know, well-known within the circuit, who, for whatever reason. It’s weird. It’s not what they’re used to — the auditions — they’re not used to auditioning. Yes, they used to being onstage, but sometimes some of them have never done a theater show with 1,000 people sitting in the theater. The Dolby must be completely intimidating if you’ve never done something that seats that many people, and for whatever reason the comedian might have a bad day and it just doesn’t go well.
Well, ultimately we do have to make a choice as producers of, we’ve taped this many acts, you know, I think the judges see you know over 200 acts. They can’t all fit on TV. And so would you rather air something that was a moment as opposed to something that was not funny. It just didn’t go as planned, so why not cut that out and pick the best possible things? And I think because of that might have been helped our reputation. One of my favorite auditions of comedian of all time, and I still literally watch this as a pick-me-up, was Doogie Horner. I literally watch that clip to make myself smile. He came out and he was just, the audience just didn’t like him. But, I mean how he turned that around was just…And I love when the judges give an X and then have to take it back. We don’t put any acts on when we’re selecting acts the judges to see and that’s my job and the job of our producers is acts send us videos. We used to go around the country and see acts. Now, we’re doing it more virtually. But we will see you know, hopefully, 10s and 10s of 1000s of acts trying to pick who we think will do something onstage that will make a TV moment. And you never know. I mean I wish we were better at it. We’ll have to put a lot more on than can actually air, but God, when it goes well or when something turns like that Doogie thing where the judge has given an X and he just kind of plows on and makes them all laugh and gets a standing ovation at the end, is like, it just still gives me chills. It’s one amazing thing about the show.
McCarthy: You mentioned how sometimes actors perform and they do well or they don’t do well. You ultimately have to decide not to even air them on TV, even though they did audition. What is the calculus of when you do show their audition, they do well in their audition, but then we never see them again.
Raff: Typically the show has a middle round — the judges cuts — where you usually get to see someone again. There are times there are only a certain finite amount of people in the judges cuts. So the judges do have to get together and pick, you know their top 36 at that point. And so there are people who did well, but you have to remember that the judges see 200 acts over a month period, so some of them they gave a yes to on day one, might’ve gotten a no if they were day three or week three, so they get together on the other side on the judge cuts which of the 36, or however many acts we’re doing that year, will compete for a shot at the live shows. This year was much different, we had the Summer Olympics and various reasons with the schedule, there were no judges cuts. And so they had to go from, how many yeses it was like 120 or so, I don’t remember the exact number, to pick a top 36, without getting a chance to see them again. Now they got to see video of what they did, but it was very very difficult this year for them to make the decisions on who made it through. And because of that giant cut I think a lot of acts that, like the Sklars didn’t kind of, like, so fine it was really rough this year.
McCarthy: For the finale voting, what’s the calculus on that? Because I know just as a math person and an odds person, the chances of winning when you’re up against 10 acts is a lot different than if the final vote is you and one other person.
Raff: Each week in the quarterfinals 12 acts perform, America votes in that so, while I say quarterfinals, there were only three of those. There were 11 acts in the semifinals. Finals had. 10 So you’re up against 10, while the earlier things have instant say we have things like instant saves and picks that finale of the 10 is strictly…so the odds are one in 10. I will say this year was the closest it has ever been, in the full 16-year history of the show. So between who came in first Dustin, and even Josh who came in third, we were talking about fractions. I’m not allowed to say the percentage, but it was so close, like never been closer. I kept checking the results overnight because you could vote all the way up to 8am, and people were going back and forth. I mean the top 10, in general, were the closest if they ever been, and the top three were also closest they’ve ever been in the history of the show. So, you know, it was exciting to see as viewers were watching and voting, it was kind of crazy this year.
McCarthy: Does that make you more or less likely to want to keep the finale, as a 10-person versus having another elimination round?
Raff: The problem with our show: We’ve stuck with 10 for many years. I think the challenge we have on our show is that if you’re doing a singing competition, you can you can perform 20 times, right? Who cares. They just do another song. The singers always seem to have an advantage. When you get to variety acts, now magicians can come up with different tricks. Comedians, depending on how good they are, they certainly can, you’re only talking about a three-minute set, right? But when you get to the aerialists and some of the other stuff like, it’s really hard for them to come back and back and back. So to win our show right now, like assuming there’s a middle round, you’ve got to compete 1-2-3-4-5 times is all you have to compete. And we felt that was a good fair number for everyone to not have to do too much, that singers have an advantage versus a danger act or an aerial act. So that’s kind of how we are. So we’ve had 10 people in the finale, I think, for as long as far as I can remember, and that seemed to be a good number to fill a two-hour show and make sure people’s favorites are in there.
McCarthy: So how do things shape up for next year?
Raff: The thing about our job is that our season is good or bad, not based on the judges or the host or anything. It’s based on the talent that turns up that year. You know, a good year or bad year of AGT is 100% based on who applied. So really, the process has just begun.
We just opened up the website. You can send in video.s We’re about to announce our virtual open calls where we meet people via Zoom and you know, getting to know someone like, even Sean like we’ve been talking on Zoom. To see people and see their personality is a big part of making decisions on whether someone would be good on AGT. You want to get a sense of their stage presence, stuff like that and even for comedy we watch comedians. They will come to a room and they’ll do the material. But imagine doing the material on Zoom: it’s really really tough. But, you do get a sense of it and we do then go back and look at all their tape. The comedian usually, thankfully, have tape, but in comedy clubs you can really see what their stage presence is, how the audience is reacting. But we also like to meet people and just ask questions, because our show is not only about your material, but it’s about you. Everyone has some kind of story. And so, meeting the people is also really important. So the process begins now. I have heard, you know I went to some comedy clubs with Howie. Actually he was working on some material. I love watching comedians work on material. So I was going with him a couple nights and we were at Supernova in LA, which was attracting some really — it’s an outdoor comedy club — really big names are going up there, and people with some very big names are going up to Howie saying, ‘Hey, oh my god I can’t believe you know, Sklars, Michael Winslow, like maybe I should do this?’ Like I was like why wouldn’t you do it? Like 11 million viewers in one day, millions of hits. So, you know, I’m hoping that this last season will be a good launching-off point for this season we’ve found that we found that I found that with. When Grace VanderWaal won, the next year we had so many kids singers, you know, so many kids singers. When the ventriloquist won, the next year we had a bunch of ventriloquist try out, so I’m hoping that the comedy world is like OK, I should give this a shot. So we’ll see, we’ll see. I don’t know what the future is until people start sending in tapes.
McCarthy: Do you have any affiliation with the new AGT Vegas production?
Raff: I have some affiliation I’m helping you know because I’ve been here like myself and Sam Donnelly the other executive producer because we know the acts, because we know the IP of the show and the brand, yeah we have, we’re kind of consulting and helping produce that.
McCarthy: How symbolic is it, then, you have Preacher Lawson, the comedian as the face of it, even though he’s only the host and not the headliner?
Raff: Well that’s a show that has six headliners. That is a variety show. But when you do look at the comedians who, like we said, who came in second, you know, or Preacher. If you look at his career after AGT, obviously he started touring more nationally, he was always touring, but obviously bigger crowds. Launching a YouTube channel which has been doing quite well. You know he was in pilot, I think, a sitcom, if I recall. And now, it’s not his residency. He’s not the only act, but it’s also an amazing opportunity to be part of an ensemble cast, for comedians who maybe don’t have the full draw would fill an entire theater, 4,000 people every night. Like that would be hard I think, for Josh Blue to do, or even a Preacher for that matter, like every night, to get 2,000-3,000 people each night, two shows a night. Where in this case, you are getting an ensemble cast, and that to me is the best part of our show. Which is, it is a variety show. You’re going to see a comedian, you’re going to see someone throw knives, you’re going to see someone twirl through the air, you’re gonna see some magic. To me, that’s why I’ve been with the show so long. If I was on a singing show for 17 years, I don’t know if I would have made it. The fact that this is a variety show, as a producer. It’s a blank slate every year. Like you said, I don’t know what this next year is gonna be. We’re gonna find out in the upcoming months. And we’ll just pray that we get some great talent to put in front of judges come this spring.
McCarthy: Well Jason, thank you so much for taking all my nerdy questions.
Raff: No problem.
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